00:00:00.000 Yes, there are, of course, models of tremendous successes in historical research,
00:00:06.440 like the deciphering of some ancient scripts, which we can now read,
00:00:14.760 we certainly understand them better than before it was possible to read them at all.
00:00:20.760 That is really, we can not answer relativism by, say, we know now definitely, dogmatically,
00:00:31.680 we have it all in our pocket now, but we can answer relativism by the claim that we have made definite progress, right?
00:00:44.200 Of course, without imagination, without speculation, no historian can get anywhere,
00:00:53.320 he would all that we would have left is a list of facts and states which may also be wrong.
00:01:01.160 In so far, I quite agree with you that there must be an ingredient in any historical work of imagination,
00:01:11.840 of construction of hypotheses, and that goes not only for more immediate situations,
00:01:21.920 but also for the development of the human race, if you like.
00:01:27.080 To have written, it could deal about the dangers of psychological explanation in the logic of situation,
00:01:44.040 but you have also used certain psychological elements in some of your writings,
00:01:50.680 and one of them is the sense of drift caused by the absence of a closed society,
00:02:01.240 which you discussed in your book, The Open Society, and its enemy,
00:02:06.040 the idea that the freedom of the open society also causes a kind of psychological reaction
00:02:15.960 alonging for the shelter of the hybrid closed society as you call you.
00:02:22.840 We cannot, I think, quite get away from this kind of explanation, nor would you want to, I believe.
00:02:31.720 It interests me very much because I have also, in the context of explanations,
00:02:38.520 used certain psychological facts or facts, for instance, the difficulty of learning to represent
00:02:47.000 the world accurately, if you haven't learned this, this is part of the theme of my book
00:02:53.880 on art and delusion that you can only do this by trial and error and learning from your predecessor,
00:03:01.480 and from your mistake, and from your trial and error. I think a very important point,
00:03:09.960 because it does not contradict the logic of the situation, it's part of the logic of the situation,
00:03:16.360 that we are just so amazed that we can't simply make it tracing of the view outside,
00:03:21.800 without attempting to interpret it to learn about it, etc.
00:03:28.360 So that in this and in other respects, I think, the logic of situation should not be misinterpreted
00:03:38.040 as claiming that people are always logical. If somebody, for instance, doesn't want to start the
00:03:46.040 business on Fridays or 13s, because you think it's a day of ill-o-man, is perfectly logical,
00:03:55.400 or rational, in not starting a business, because that is his belief, and in many interpretations
00:04:03.320 of situations, we find these beliefs playing a great role.
00:04:14.200 Mastery of a skill is, of course, something which interests me very much because it's part
00:04:20.120 of art, and of the history of art, but he didn't have to think very much when he wrote a
00:04:28.040 fugue. I mean, he knew exactly how to do it. Of course, he was exploring, but within a given field,
00:04:36.680 which he knew perfectly well, that is to say, it's very different from back to right,
00:04:42.440 if you, as it is for me or you to write a fugue, I know you have written fugue, but even so,
00:04:48.440 that is a very different thing, the degree of mastery, which starts on a certain platform,
00:04:56.840 which makes it possible to make fresh discoveries and fresh exploration.
00:05:05.240 I completely agree with use it, we explore the world,
00:05:10.120 we obtain knowledge up to a certain level, and starting on this new level,
00:05:18.440 I have a new starting point and so on. I completely agree with that, but I would say this
00:05:26.120 again is a kind of talent, our working, and not really the repetition which leads to forget fullness,
00:05:35.800 which leads to automation, to banning each form of consciousness. That is a very important point,
00:05:42.920 to see, let us say, in modern art teaching, that everybody should just fool around and say,
00:05:48.920 like, and not learn the mastery of the masters. In that respect, you have to learn in a very
00:06:01.400 disciplined way, I completely agree with you, I have often formulated it as a shame,
00:06:09.000 if we start from Adam, you don't get any further than Adam. We should perhaps say here
00:06:17.320 what bearing this has on history, it has because it shows light on the continuities,
00:06:25.640 both in the history of science and in the history of art, that there is always a platform from
00:06:32.040 which the next apprentices start. This is very important and discontinuity should not be interrupted,
00:06:41.720 and discontinuity should also be understood as a part of problem solving. It is within problem
00:06:53.960 solving there are also solved problems. Yes. And then we go on to new problems. That is the
00:07:01.800 health of problems and go on to new problems and new problems can only be solved by trial,
00:07:09.080 error, and of course, in art especially by evaluation. But there are elements of technology in that.
00:07:18.040 Let us say, in architecture, avoiding the world, once it was solved, you could go on to new things
00:07:25.640 like building cathedrals, you put it through that before. We are posting a sense of historians,
00:07:42.840 and we can hardly imagine what it would be like not to know anything about the past and to live
00:07:49.960 entirely in depression. It seems to me a pity that some people try to do that because they are
00:07:57.560 deprived of many beautiful experiences and much important knowledge just to understand how the
00:08:04.920 world has become what is today even if our knowledge is always contextual. I do agree and it is
00:08:15.400 impossible for anybody who has any interest in history not to see that our world, the world in which
00:08:25.800 we now live in the Western countries, is really the best and most beautiful world which has
00:08:34.600 survived existed. It is the justice world, the freest world and the world fullest of opportunities
00:08:49.000 and in addition to all that, it is the world which has become most critical of itself.
00:08:58.520 Of course, very many people fall into historicists and other ideology ideologies and
00:09:10.680 believe that we are living in a very bad world. As a matter of fact, in a way, there is a kind of
00:09:20.520 religion that we live in a social hell. I think that is fantastic and completely mistaken and
00:09:34.280 anybody who knows any history can easily show that it is quite mistaken and that the world has
00:09:43.320 never been as good as this before and this hope for this before. Of course, the future about the
00:09:54.120 future will know nothing but that it is open, that it is not predetermined and that it will depend on
00:10:04.600 our efforts, whether it will be better or worse than it is now. It is me who are really making
00:10:14.040 the future and whether we can further progress, I don't know. There is no such a thing as
00:10:25.960 progressiveism that is to say and necessity to progress or anything of that. We can always also
00:10:34.840 rigors if we do not really work for better men directly, not for hookers but for a better world.
00:11:28.280 Uncertain truth returns next week at 1145, when Sir Karl Popper will discuss the evolution of
